[Edward650]

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oh soo dam SMEXY ^^ lol

[MrXIII]

Originally Posted by meimei

I purposefully put Jesters' United under only the Yoyo Jester because, while it is open to all discussion related to the Jester, the majority, if not almost all the posts talk about the Yoyo jester. The reason for this is that the bow jester is a more straight-forward class which does not require much discussion x: .. also, I did include in the commentary that it is open to both.

Your call. I'm just saying that a casual reader who just skims your entry post and dashes through it probably will take a closer look at your "Class-Specific Guides and Resources" section, because the three images draw a lot of attention. And studying the table, they might be wondering "Wut? No help thred [sic] for BJs?". It's probably what I would do if I had a BJ and a question about him. If.

Originally Posted by meimei

I actually prefer my links to be opening in a new window xD .. but since you brought it up, I have designed it now so that if people prefer the links to open in the same window, they can :3 .. so thanks for that suggestion ^^

There simply is a difference between having the choice of opening a link in a new window, and being forced to open a link in a new window. If you click on any random link (not just FW but anywhere on the internet), aren't you expecting it to replace the current window's contents? Without trying to go to much into web design here, the bottom line is that whether or not Joe User wants to view a link in its own window is solely his decision, not the page author's. For most average Joes, the alternative of opening the link in another window is as simple as right-clicking on the link and selecting "Open in a new window", anyway. So there's no reason to make the decision for him.

Also, think of perhaps a person visiting FW via a PDA. I don't think a PDA user would be happy to have to close a browser window after "clicking" on a link in a thread. Assuming that every user has a standard GUI environment with at least a 640x480 display and a browser with multiple windows is... not a good idea. Hence my suggestion of replacing internal [url]s with [thread]s. This can (and should) also be extended to [post]s, which have the additional nicety of adapting to the viewer's "Posts per page displayed" setting.

Originally Posted by meimei

Actually, I don't have the power to change titles and the way they show up. I can change the title, but it doesn't change the title displayed, as I'm only a section moderator.

.____. Sinner, Rows, where are you when we need you? And why is this system so broken anyway?

Originally Posted by meimei

Thanks for that link :3 I looked through the guide and it looks pretty good, so I linked it ^^

Sure thing.

Originally Posted by meimei

But yeah, thanks for your hard work and help :3 .. The reason, by the way, I'm keeping community threads linked under the picture is because, well, one, Ranger's Refuge isn't just a community thread. It contains a mini guide in the beginning, which would mean that Jesters' United would be alone xD;; .. another reason is because, as I said earlier, I don't really like how it's randomly placed with just two links like that @-@;; .. and, finally, since I have them starred now, and since I have a description below regarding the links, I think it should be all right that way.

You mean that before the community links were on two different table rows? Yes, that did make it look a bit... weird, but the problem gracefully solved itself. Also, from what I can see, Jesters' United just doesn't have the FAQ list at the beginning, which someone could try to pursuade Snake into doing.

[Sinner]

Great Job meimei!

[MrXIII]

Ack! Sinner! We need a thread title change on "Jester's United". Could you do that? Apparently, meimei cannot. Please?

[meimei]

Originally Posted by MrXIII

Your call. I'm just saying that a casual reader who just skims your entry post and dashes through it probably will take a closer look at your "Class-Specific Guides and Resources" section, because the three images draw a lot of attention. And studying the table, they might be wondering "Wut? No help thred [sic] for BJs?". It's probably what I would do if I had a BJ and a question about him. If.

The thing about that is, as I said earlier, there isn't much about BJs to be discussed xD .. if they read the guide carefully enough linked above, it will most likely answer almost, if not all questions, so they probably won't need a community thread.

Also, people tend to reply to guides if they have their own questions as well, if that were to happen.

Originally Posted by MrXIII

There simply is a difference between having the choice of opening a link in a new window, and being forced to open a link in a new window. If you click on any random link (not just FW but anywhere on the internet), aren't you expecting it to replace the current window's contents? Without trying to go to much into web design here, the bottom line is that whether or not Joe User wants to view a link in its own window is solely his decision, not the page author's. For most average Joes, the alternative of opening the link in another window is as simple as right-clicking on the link and selecting "Open in a new window", anyway. So there's no reason to make the decision for him.

Well, I haven't made the decision for our Joe User. As you can see, I have allowed him the option of either clicking the "new window" icon, which will open in a new window, or the link itself, which would just open normally in the page.

And, FlyffWorld really isn't too PDA friendly, if that's what you mean. The majority, if not all, of the links being linked here are not using the [thread] code, so even if my own help guide linking onto the same page for those PDA users (who, in this case, are most likely not Joe Users, btw), every single other link out there on FW isn't going to be PDA-friendly.

That being said, I have taken your idea into account.

Originally Posted by MrXIII

.____. Sinner, Rows, where are you when we need you? And why is this system so broken anyway?

I don't think Sinner will be able to change it either, btw.

Originally Posted by MrXIII

You mean that before the community links were on two different table rows? Yes, that did make it look a bit... weird, but the problem gracefully solved itself. Also, from what I can see, Jesters' United just doesn't have the FAQ list at the beginning, which someone could try to pursuade Snake into doing.

Well, not everyone wants/has the time or interest of making one. All the other community threads actually don't, so I don't think I will be persuading Snake of doing anything as of yet o:

And thanks, Sinner :3 ~ ^^

Aaand, thank you Mills, I'm adding that now :3 .. let me know if there is anything you need changed or modified ^^

[MStevens24]

very well done.

[MrXIII]

Originally Posted by meimei

The thing about that is, as I said earlier, there isn't much about BJs to be discussed xD .. if they read the guide carefully enough linked above, it will most likely answer almost, if not all questions, so they probably won't need a community thread.

Also, people tend to reply to guides if they have their own questions as well, if that were to happen.

Tough situation, I guess. It's a personal decision on whether to trust a reader to actually take the effort of reading through the whole information listed (the guide in this case), or rather assume that the reader just scans through the page looking for something that might answer the question. My experience (and my common sense) tells me that users, who are unfamiliar with the website they are navigating, tend to rather quickly scan through something instead of reading it step by step; you apparently belong to the other category. Scanning through pages is e.g. what I did when I first came here in Feb 2008: I scanned the guides page by page looking for the info I needed. But to do that I needed pointers to the information, e.g. a link to a community thread .

Still, there probably is no right or wrong answer to this, it boils down to personal preference. And since you made this thread, it's your decision. Still, I hope you take the time to read through and think about my reasoning.

Originally Posted by meimei

Well, I haven't made the decision for our Joe User. As you can see, I have allowed him the option of either clicking the "new window" icon, which will open in a new window, or the link itself, which would just open normally in the page.

And, FlyffWorld really isn't too PDA friendly, if that's what you mean. The majority, if not all, of the links being linked here are not using the [thread] code, so even if my own help guide linking onto the same page for those PDA users (who, in this case, are most likely not Joe Users, btw), every single other link out there on FW isn't going to be PDA-friendly.

That being said, I have taken your idea into account.

I wasn't ranting at you; sorry if it came across as that. I was trying to explain the real reasons behind this scenario: what the problem is, what the solution is, and why you should do it. Way too few websites are designed for user agent neutrality (meaning it doesn't make any functional difference if you view a page on a standard browser like Internet Explorer, or a PDA, or even a speech synthesis system); FW is no exception. Still, that is not necessarily a good reason to continue "littering the park" with more of this broken functionality. Raising awareness about the problem with vBulletin [url]s is the first step, which everyone can actually do (it's even shorter to type).

I'm glad to see you followed my tip, though. At least someone (with a very nice writing style, if I may add) here is aware of the problem, and actually trying to work around it. Makes me feel less lonely.

Now, the next step towards improving the situation is to stop writing links with "here" as their link text, e.g.

I suggest you post your thread here.

as these are totally useless if you don't read the surrounding text, which you sometimes don't when scanning through posts. Glad to say I don't remember any links of that sort from you, meimei, so this is rather a note to the other people reading this thread.

Originally Posted by meimei

I don't think Sinner will be able to change it either, btw.

This stupid "thread title and thread display title" issue makes no sense at all. Why aren't they the same?

Oh well, doesn't look like we are going to get it solved anyway...

Originally Posted by meimei

Well, not everyone wants/has the time or interest of making one. All the other community threads actually don't, so I don't think I will be persuading Snake of doing anything as of yet o:

Having looked at the Ringmaster Community Thread a bit, I'd say Woxxy's Q&A section at the beginning does count as one, no? Still, it's fine by me if Snake doesn't do one. It just makes Ranger's Refuge even more outstanding than it already is. Which is GOOD.

[e-brawl]

The layout is great tbh. I liek

[Millsy]

Originally Posted by meimei

Aaand, thank you Mills, I'm adding that now :3 .. let me know if there is anything you need changed or modified ^^

your welcome, there is one thing i would like added to the pros and con part please :3

Yoyo Jesters
Pro; really need a +8 set or higher to preform well

Bow Jesters
pro; don't need a high +ed set and lvl perfectly fine with just a +3 set

edit: i dunno how but i somehow managed to forget half the word in Comparison =x, so the spoiler in your guide is also missing half the word

[meimei]

Originally Posted by Millsy

your welcome, there is one thing i would like added to the pros and con part please :3

Yoyo Jesters
Pro; really need a +8 set or higher to preform well

Bow Jesters
pro; don't need a high +ed set and lvl perfectly fine with just a +3 set

edit: i dunno how but i somehow managed to forget half the word in Comparison =x, so the spoiler in your guide is also missing half the word

Thanks for your help again, Mills ^_^ .. I have added that in, and added a little tidbit into Rangers as well, if you don't mind ^^ .. I have also changed Comparison.. lol.. to be honest.. I didn't get why it said ARISON at first.. xD .. I was like.. hm.. maybe this is a Flyff term I didn't know about.. and I didn't really look into it.. lol xD;;;

I also added a "Popularity" thingie.. I didn't know what you meant by "Rarity," to be honest.. but rangers are actually one of the less popular classes in game. They only started getting more popular recently o:

Originally Posted by MrXIII

Tough situation, I guess. It's a personal decision on whether to trust a reader to actually take the effort of reading through the whole information listed (the guide in this case), or rather assume that the reader just scans through the page looking for something that might answer the question. My experience (and my common sense) tells me that users, who are unfamiliar with the website they are navigating, tend to rather quickly scan through something instead of reading it step by step; you apparently belong to the other category. Scanning through pages is e.g. what I did when I first came here in Feb 2008: I scanned the guides page by page looking for the info I needed. But to do that I needed pointers to the information, e.g. a link to a community thread .

Well, I purposefully made this thread to provide some "pointers" for people to look through. I have countless of resources available for them above, already x: .. and, if they need further direction, most of them would most likely start a new thread, anyway. I think your thinking of a community thread is a little different than what I see in the community threads. They're not so much for n00bs as for people who have experienced flyff a lot already, and need to discuss something specific and in detail to their build alone x:

Also, people usually reply to a guide if they have more questions. (I don't know if I said this before o-o .. maybe I thought it..)

And, you're right that there isn't a right or wrong answer, but I just want you to know that I have thought about this.. xD;; .. and, if I do say, have been around those threads to know their content and who it would help more x: .. so, thanks for your input, but my set up is there for a reason, and I will keep it that way.

Originally Posted by MrXIII

I wasn't ranting at you; sorry if it came across as that. I was trying to explain the real reasons behind this scenario: what the problem is, what the solution is, and why you should do it. Way too few websites are designed for user agent neutrality (meaning it doesn't make any functional difference if you view a page on a standard browser like Internet Explorer, or a PDA, or even a speech synthesis system); FW is no exception. Still, that is not necessarily a good reason to continue "littering the park" with more of this broken functionality. Raising awareness about the problem with vBulletin [url]s is the first step, which everyone can actually do (it's even shorter to type).

I'm glad to see you followed my tip, though. At least someone (with a very nice writing style, if I may add) here is aware of the problem, and actually trying to work around it. Makes me feel less lonely.

Now, the next step towards improving the situation is to stop writing links with "here" as their link text, e.g. as these are totally useless if you don't read the surrounding text, which you sometimes don't when scanning through posts. Glad to say I don't remember any links of that sort from you, meimei, so this is rather a note to the other people reading this thread.

Well, if you do have a problem with the coding of the forum, you can contact the Admin, Tor (or if you want, I can do it). To be honest, it's the first I've heard of it, but that doesn't mean that other people don't see it that way. You can also post this in the Site Feedback & Suggestions, if you'd like.

As for the "here" link text, I don't know how much you can change that.. haha.

Originally Posted by MrXIII

Having looked at the Ringmaster Community Thread a bit, I'd say Woxxy's Q&A section at the beginning does count as one, no? Still, it's fine by me if Snake doesn't do one. It just makes Ranger's Refuge even more outstanding than it already is. Which is GOOD.

That is true; I forgot about Woxxy's o: .. there's also the Merc center which is great too. But not all community threads have FAQ's.. so.. yeah o:

But, thanks the help.

[Millsy]

Originally Posted by meimei

Thanks for your help again, Mills ^_^ .. I have added that in, and added a little tidbit into Rangers as well, if you don't mind ^^ .. I have also changed Comparison.. lol.. to be honest.. I didn't get why it said ARISON at first.. xD .. I was like.. hm.. maybe this is a Flyff term I didn't know about.. and I didn't really look into it.. lol xD;;;

I also added a "Popularity" thingie.. I didn't know what you meant by "Rarity," to be honest.. but rangers are actually one of the less popular classes in game. They only started getting more popular recently o:

lol popularity makes more sense than rarity but there all really the same in the end xD

and from my experiance of people i have met there are aloot of new rangers around
nearly every single person i know has a ranger as an alt, but ah well maybe i just meet alot of people that like rangers @.@

[MrXIII]

Originally Posted by meimei

Thanks for your help again, Mills ^_^ .. I have added that in, and added a little tidbit into Rangers as well, if you don't mind ^^ .. I have also changed Comparison.. lol.. to be honest.. I didn't get why it said ARISON at first.. xD .. I was like.. hm.. maybe this is a Flyff term I didn't know about.. and I didn't really look into it.. lol xD;;;

To be honest... not meaning to insult you here, Mills, but... do you actually read through your post before sending it off, especially if it's going to be included in a somewhat professional publication (if you can call this help thread that)? Because each time I wrote meimei a response, especially when I suggested my revised table layout, I went through the whole post at least 5 times or so hunting down spelling/grammar mistakes, thinking to myself the whole time "ZOMG! Did I make yet another spelling mistake? Is it written correctly now?"... I'll be doing it for this post as well. But do you?

Originally Posted by meimei

I also added a "Popularity" thingie.. I didn't know what you meant by "Rarity," to be honest.. but rangers are actually one of the less popular classes in game. They only started getting more popular recently o:

Originally Posted by Millsy

and from my experiance of people i have met there are aloot of new rangers around
nearly every single person i know has a ranger as an alt, but ah well maybe i just meet alot of people that like rangers @.@

I seriously hope that they haven't become too popular, and that what you're seeing there is an Aibatt phenomenon, which hasn't spread over to Mushpoie yet. Because I'd be very interested in playing a rare class on Mushie. And Mushpoie already has a ton of Elementors, who are supposedly similarly as extinct as Rangers. If Rangers become commonplace as well... Please tell me it's an Aibatt phenomenon. .____.

Originally Posted by meimei

Well, I purposefully made this thread to provide some "pointers" for people to look through. I have countless of resources available for them above, already x: .. and, if they need further direction, most of them would most likely start a new thread, anyway. I think your thinking of a community thread is a little different than what I see in the community threads. They're not so much for n00bs as for people who have experienced flyff a lot already, and need to discuss something specific and in detail to their build alone x:

Yes and no. I'll admit I do the same thing whenever I post into a community thread (doesn't really happen that often, but anyway). Yet I still think that people are also directed at a community thread when they post questions like "Is my build ok? (insert stats here)". It might just be an impression though. Do as you see fit.

Originally Posted by meimei

Also, people usually reply to a guide if they have more questions. (I don't know if I said this before o-o .. maybe I thought it..)

Well yes, you said that before. Personally, I'm not really sure how effective that is... I see quite a few abandoned guides (judging by the author's last login date (!)); sadly, Cascadia's Ranger guide is one of them. I'm thinking that if someone posts a question there, they'd wait for a few days, then wonder why they're not getting a reply from the guide author, and might repost the question here in the Archery Range. Defeats the purpose of feedback on the guide, but whatever. Question is: is your help thread prepared for this? You are asking people to read it before posting, after all.

Originally Posted by meimei

And, you're right that there isn't a right or wrong answer, but I just want you to know that I have thought about this.. xD;; .. and, if I do say, have been around those threads to know their content and who it would help more x: .. so, thanks for your input, but my set up is there for a reason, and I will keep it that way.

Alright. You heard me out, which is all I was asking for.

Originally Posted by meimei

Well, if you do have a problem with the coding of the forum, you can contact the Admin, Tor (or if you want, I can do it). To be honest, it's the first I've heard of it, but that doesn't mean that other people don't see it that way. You can also post this in the Site Feedback & Suggestions, if you'd like.

This seems to be more of a problem with the underlying board system, vBulletin, itself. And I seriously doubt that I can get any of the admins to dig into the code that deep to change PDA/speech synthesis/text browser/whatever friendliness... it'd be a major rewrite of the whole system. I doubt they'd be ready to invest so much effort in it, considering the gains for the rest of the users are comparatively minor.

Anyway, don't think too much about it. Those are remnants of my old days when I tried to become a webmaster.

Originally Posted by meimei

As for the "here" link text, I don't know how much you can change that.. haha.

I know it's pretty hopeless, but I can still just mention it and hope for the best. Nothing wrong with that.

Originally Posted by meimei

That is true; I forgot about Woxxy's o: .. there's also the Merc center which is great too. But not all community threads have FAQ's.. so.. yeah o:

But, thanks the help.

Anytime ma'am. The wonderful thing about the Ranger community is that their members are the ones with the least pride, and therefore the smallest ego. That's why they're rather open to other ideas and/or other people's feedback/input. That's my impression at least. Keep it up I say, and once my Ranger is done making, I'll join these lovely crowds.

[Millsy]

Originally Posted by MrXIII

To be honest... not meaning to insult you here, Mills, but... do you actually read through your post before sending it off, especially if it's going to be included in a somewhat professional publication (if you can call this help thread that)? Because each time I wrote meimei a response, especially when I suggested my revised table layout, I went through the whole post at least 5 times or so hunting down spelling/grammar mistakes, thinking to myself the whole time "ZOMG! Did I make yet another spelling mistake? Is it written correctly now?"... I'll be doing it for this post as well. But do you?

not really o.o
i don't care too much if i made a typo or a grammical mistake or anything
only time i re-read stuff i have wrote is at school in english, hell i don't even do it half the time then

[meimei]

Originally Posted by Millsy

lol popularity makes more sense than rarity but there all really the same in the end xD

and from my experiance of people i have met there are aloot of new rangers around
nearly every single person i know has a ranger as an alt, but ah well maybe i just meet alot of people that like rangers @.@

Hm.. I think you just have a lot of friends who make them.. o_O .. from my experience, most people are going jester when they're an acro x:

Originally Posted by MrXIII

I seriously hope that they haven't become too popular, and that what you're seeing there is an Aibatt phenomenon, which hasn't spread over to Mushpoie yet. Because I'd be very interested in playing a rare class on Mushie. And Mushpoie already has a ton of Elementors, who are supposedly similarly as extinct as Rangers. If Rangers become commonplace as well... Please tell me it's an Aibatt phenomenon. .____.

Yeah, there are more Rangers, but not that many, still, I think.

Originally Posted by MrXIII

Well yes, you said that before. Personally, I'm not really sure how effective that is... I see quite a few abandoned guides (judging by the author's last login date (!)); sadly, Cascadia's Ranger guide is one of them. I'm thinking that if someone posts a question there, they'd wait for a few days, then wonder why they're not getting a reply from the guide author, and might repost the question here in the Archery Range. Defeats the purpose of feedback on the guide, but whatever. Question is: is your help thread prepared for this? You are asking people to read it before posting, after all.

<_< My help thread is here to help guide people in a direction. It doesn't mean that if they have a question that is not answered, they cannot post in the Archery Range. There are plenty of people who ask for build/skill up as a new thread, and there isn't anything "wrong" with it. If people are asking for build help with their personal build it's fine; otherwise, if they're not sure of a build, they might be redirected to a thread/resource that takes about it, which is why some people do link over to them.

Anyway @_@;; .. I'm not really "asking" people to do anything.. this is just for people who might need a direction to where to look for guides, etc. The only thing I can do is help give them a little direction, not take their hand and walk them their whole journey.. and yes, there are people who don't read stickies.. but hopefully some people do and see that their question has already been answered.

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