[EbilDays]

  
REGISTER TO REMOVE THIS AD

If people want their kids to learn about creationism in school they need to send them to a private school. Because schools are state funded and America has that whole seperation of church and state thing going on people need to drop it. Some people see teaching evolution as going against their religious freedom because it undermines the teaching that God created man and woman.

Me personally I don't want to see children ever have a choice between learning evolution or creationism. The choice will not be the children's choice but those of their parents. Just like the choice of taking sex ed or not now. It is not like children can not learn both things at the same time. If people want their beliefs, values, morals, and whatever else passed on to their children it is up to them to do it not the state.

Anyone that grew up in a religious family or enviorment where taught the basics of creationism at an early age. And if they wish to learn more about it then that is a choice they should be allowed to make after learning about evolution so that can give informed consent.


As for teachers teaching fairy tales there have been penty of those told in the name of science over the years: pluto being a planet, the earth is flat, the big bang theory, and etc. Science does not know how everything started and can only trace things back so far. For all anyone knows maybe there is some big God in the heavens that really did create everything or maybe this life of ours is just a freak of nature. Both science and religion think they know but they are both just making shots in the dark and it is up to us to chose one and have faith that it is the right choice.

[Longknife]

Originally Posted by AidanRyuko

Our forefathers in America were seeking freedom from religious persecution. I forget if they were protestant or catholic. However, Times HAVE changed. A scientist once said, "At first when you get into science, it pulls you away from religion. Then as you go deeper, science only takes you back to religion."

It's tremendously hard for humans to comprehend everything in the universe. Some say religion was made to comfort people when they thought about death. Some say it was made for social control. Indeed, organized religion is the perfect 'hivemind' or system to make everyone in society think alike, and shun those who think differently.

Evolution does occur, no doubt. But in my view, if Earth formed from thousands or millions of particles of space dust coming together and slowly building up, what gave it a molten core? A mantle? A crust? Water? What caused particles to suddenly form organelles? Then cells? What made cells come together collectively to form multicellular organisms? What made these cells grant sentience to a being?

Science can explain a lot. And Religion can explain a lot too, but in the end, there will ALWAYS be holes left. Teaching the students that the two theories can go hand in hand, instead of against each other may help. Tolerance only leads to advancement.

YAH I'M DUBBLE POSTIN' STFU AND BLAME DUBBLE BUBBLE FOR TEACHING ME SUCH DUBBLING WAYS.


The scientist that said that was Einstein. Perhaps not the best guy to quote since, about two months ago, they found some writings of his that he wrote close to his death, where he basically said the idea of a God was all just fantasy. Not saying he didn't believe in God, just saying he switched sides on the arguement many times, so he's not that great to quote when trying to prove a point on the subject. Really I've always thought all of the weight on Einstein's answer to the question was uncalled for. It's as if everyone thought that the smartest man in the world MUST have the answer, but that's not so. Plus, even if his final answer was 'There is no God,' one can't deny that throughout his life he went through a pattern of changing from 'yes' to 'no' and back to 'yes' again. One can still argue that he just died before he reached that next yes. So yeah...pointless to put weight on his answer about religion. He's human like us; he doesn't know the answer.


And the last part about tolerance and combining them...sorta don't agree.

I remember when I was younger, I always though compromise and tolerance were the best option. Now though, I'm starting to see issues where I just think, "No, that's NOT ok! They're wrong; we shouldn't have to tweak our right answer just to satisfy their wrong answer!" Yeah it's still good to be tolerant and compromise, but you gotta draw the line on it and know which arguements it's not ok for.

I had a Biology teacher that I just loved. I mean I'm Agnostic, but still it was annoying that I lived in the freaking Bible Belt, where every non-religious idea was fukn blasphamy. But my Biology teacher was a pleasant surprise. She'd go on rants with the religious kids, saying "Evolution NEVER said we evolved from monkeys, and you're stupid if you think it did," or ranting to judges at the science fair about one of her student's projects about how the....Y'KNOW THAT ONE THING THEY SAY JESUS WAS WRAPPED IN WHEN HE DIED. Dx Yeah one of the students did a project and tried to copy it, simply to show that the thing was a fake. The judges totally shunned her project for daring to call that thing into question, and my teacher went apeshit on them.
The student was a Christian, the teacher was a Christian. Both of them however saw the logic in science and followed that path.

I just think it's stupid to compromise between Evolution and Creationism when it's CLEAR that Evolution exists. Yes, things evolve and adapt to their environment. FFS, go test a blind man's hearing. No, things don't stay the same. So why are we letting this false idea hang around, simply because it's a religious subject, and homg that's a sensitive subject? Great, when I rob a bank and the police ask me if I did it, I'll tell them it's a religious subject and they shouldn't ask. I mean, I don't even UNDERSTAND why religion can't accept evolution. It doesn't go against shit in the bible; the only controversy is that humans evolved from chimps, and as I've already said, NO scientist will tell you that. Chimps and Humans are in a way RELATED. Doesn't mean their our fathers. Do you see dogs evolving into wolves, or house cats into Jaguars?? FFS stop playing pokemon...
Sorry, I'm just really out of patience with some religious people. After 12 years in the Bible belt, it finally happened. I'm sick of having a religious classmate try to debunk evolution for a project by taking some quote by Darwin saying "If even one organism was so complex as to not possibly being able to evolve to come to being that way, then I guess my ideas are wrong" (which btw, sounds OBVIOUSLY not-so-serious to me. Sounds like something he'd say cause he's so confident), and then showing some weird-ass complex microscopic organism, then claiming it means evolution's been debunked. 1) Darwin sounded cocky, not serious. 2) ONE exception doesn't prove shit 3) Not even really sure it COUNTED as an exception; wasn't paying attention much when she claimed she was gonna debunk evolution by looking at some retarded ancient microscopic organism that's no one's ever heard of.


Obviously, no matter WHAT we teach, the truly religious nuts will answer every truth they don't wanna hear with "IT'S A TEST FROM GAAAWD!!! " so why the hell are we worried about hurting their feelings? Clearly everything that doesn't fit their own personal religious beliefs is a fucking test, so they should be thanking us, perhaps even PAYING us, for helping to further fortify their faith, wtf....




The fact is, no one knows how the universe was created, and whatever happened sure doesn't seem to fit any logic that we, as humans, can follow. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean we wanna pull random explanations out of our ass. We should follow the facts as far as we can, and when things reach beyond our possible comprehension, simply accept it as that. I'm Agnostic because I know there's no way I can prove there is a God, nor can I prove there isn't. There can be, and there can not be. Don't sweat on questions that can't be answered, and rather focus on those that can be answered; just be a good person and help those that you know DO exist.














Oh, and I love how, believing that the universe has and always will be....Oooooh no~, THAT'S fucknuts.

Believing in some old fart who made us all, and has and always will be. Oh yeah, that's how it is. Totally possible...








Sorry, random rant is random. D:

[AidanRyuko]

Originally Posted by Longknife

YAH I'M DUBBLE POSTIN' STFU AND BLAME DUBBLE BUBBLE FOR TEACHING ME SUCH DUBBLING WAYS.


The scientist that said that was Einstein. Perhaps not the best guy to quote since, about two months ago, they found some writings of his that he wrote close to his death, where he basically said the idea of a God was all just fantasy. Not saying he didn't believe in God, just saying he switched sides on the arguement many times, so he's not that great to quote when trying to prove a point on the subject. Really I've always thought all of the weight on Einstein's answer to the question was uncalled for. It's as if everyone thought that the smartest man in the world MUST have the answer, but that's not so. Plus, even if his final answer was 'There is no God,' one can't deny that throughout his life he went through a pattern of changing from 'yes' to 'no' and back to 'yes' again. One can still argue that he just died before he reached that next yes. So yeah...pointless to put weight on his answer about religion. He's human like us; he doesn't know the answer.


And the last part about tolerance and combining them...sorta don't agree.

I remember when I was younger, I always though compromise and tolerance were the best option. Now though, I'm starting to see issues where I just think, "No, that's NOT ok! They're wrong; we shouldn't have to tweak our right answer just to satisfy their wrong answer!" Yeah it's still good to be tolerant and compromise, but you gotta draw the line on it and know which arguements it's not ok for.

I had a Biology teacher that I just loved. I mean I'm Agnostic, but still it was annoying that I lived in the freaking Bible Belt, where every non-religious idea was fukn blasphamy. But my Biology teacher was a pleasant surprise. She'd go on rants with the religious kids, saying "Evolution NEVER said we evolved from monkeys, and you're stupid if you think it did," or ranting to judges at the science fair about one of her student's projects about how the....Y'KNOW THAT ONE THING THEY SAY JESUS WAS WRAPPED IN WHEN HE DIED. Dx Yeah one of the students did a project and tried to copy it, simply to show that the thing was a fake. The judges totally shunned her project for daring to call that thing into question, and my teacher went apeshit on them.
The student was a Christian, the teacher was a Christian. Both of them however saw the logic in science and followed that path.

I just think it's stupid to compromise between Evolution and Creationism when it's CLEAR that Evolution exists. Yes, things evolve and adapt to their environment. FFS, go test a blind man's hearing. No, things don't stay the same. So why are we letting this false idea hang around, simply because it's a religious subject, and homg that's a sensitive subject? Great, when I rob a bank and the police ask me if I did it, I'll tell them it's a religious subject and they shouldn't ask. I mean, I don't even UNDERSTAND why religion can't accept evolution. It doesn't go against shit in the bible; the only controversy is that humans evolved from chimps, and as I've already said, NO scientist will tell you that. Chimps and Humans are in a way RELATED. Doesn't mean their our fathers. Do you see dogs evolving into wolves, or house cats into Jaguars?? FFS stop playing pokemon...
Sorry, I'm just really out of patience with some religious people. After 12 years in the Bible belt, it finally happened. I'm sick of having a religious classmate try to debunk evolution for a project by taking some quote by Darwin saying "If even one organism was so complex as to not possibly being able to evolve to come to being that way, then I guess my ideas are wrong" (which btw, sounds OBVIOUSLY not-so-serious to me. Sounds like something he'd say cause he's so confident), and then showing some weird-ass complex microscopic organism, then claiming it means evolution's been debunked. 1) Darwin sounded cocky, not serious. 2) ONE exception doesn't prove shit 3) Not even really sure it COUNTED as an exception; wasn't paying attention much when she claimed she was gonna debunk evolution by looking at some retarded ancient microscopic organism that's no one's ever heard of.


Obviously, no matter WHAT we teach, the truly religious nuts will answer every truth they don't wanna hear with "IT'S A TEST FROM GAAAWD!!! " so why the hell are we worried about hurting their feelings? Clearly everything that doesn't fit their own personal religious beliefs is a fucking test, so they should be thanking us, perhaps even PAYING us, for helping to further fortify their faith, wtf....




The fact is, no one knows how the universe was created, and whatever happened sure doesn't seem to fit any logic that we, as humans, can follow. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean we wanna pull random explanations out of our ass. We should follow the facts as far as we can, and when things reach beyond our possible comprehension, simply accept it as that. I'm Agnostic because I know there's no way I can prove there is a God, nor can I prove there isn't. There can be, and there can not be. Don't sweat on questions that can't be answered, and rather focus on those that can be answered; just be a good person and help those that you know DO exist.














Oh, and I love how, believing that the universe has and always will be....Oooooh no~, THAT'S fucknuts.

Believing in some old fart who made us all, and has and always will be. Oh yeah, that's how it is. Totally possible...








Sorry, random rant is random. D:

For the record, I am a non-denominational, moderate christian. I do not believe in the creation theory as much as I like the values and morals christianity pushes (The basics, like honesty, no violence, no stealing, generousity, etc). Now before you say it, no I don't shun anyone who believes in anything else. No, I don't go on a fucking crusade to slaughter muslims by the thousands.

Anyways. I say the two can coexist NOT to compromise one another. But seeing as science can't prove where the hell the Earth came from, and how 76 billion coincidences happened all at once, you can then plug in creationism.

Example: The formation of the Earth, as well as the beginning of life cannot be completely explained through science. There is a possibility that an external force, such as a god or another race of beings, could have made the changes themselves.

They already found DNA precursors on meteorites. This does give some clue as to where life may have come from. However, DNA and RNA do not equate life. If you had a full set of human DNA lying on the ground, will it evolve? No.

So by compromise, I mean one's gaps can be filled in by the other. Where Science fails, Religion can help close the missing pieces of the puzzle until science can find a solid answer.

[Dr. Slick]

One thing I can't stand in a person is when they are over-religious, Hypocrites, prejudice, and racist and you all know what I mean. The ones that make hate parades and spread lies and say something is bad but do it anyways. They have some false belief in them started but none other than our ancestors.

My father was a hypocrite, a prejudice, a racist and a pastor. He hated everyone but himself, but he still confined in the bible and went to church. He would preach to me when I was little about how God was holy and the protector of all. That raised many questions. So many questions.

One day I decided to confront him after he was done preaching. I asked him if god was the protector of all why he let all of these disasters happen: 9/11, 2005 Tsunami. Do you know what his answer was? I'll translate: "It's because god doesn't deal with the matters of the flesh." WHAT!? What the hell? How does he protect us but not protect us? I pointed out his flaw."DO NOT QUESTION THE WORD OF GOD!" What was he talking about? Why wouldn't he answer my question?

Some weeks later it hit me: He didn't know the answer either. He had spent all of his life obeying the word of his god and preaching to everyone else and he still did not have answers. When the issue came up at school, the teachers decided to not teach it, but I wanted to know everything, both sides, so I looked it up as best as I could. In bible terms, God created the earth and all its inhabitants in seven days. According to evolution, it took us millions of years just to reach what we have now. I looked at the "facts" versus the Bible. The bible didn't make any sense. It preached about god being a holy lord but about him torturing his servants, about him. He let Cain kill his own brother Abel. If there was a true god, that god would protect us. You see, the Bible was written to create fear among man, and that's truly what it's done.

So to sum it up, here is what I propose. Don't teach either. Because no one knows for sure if either of them are right. And don't call God a god if he can't even protect his people. Because if a God is too busy to help, then that is no god. That is something else.

[Longknife]

Originally Posted by AidanRyuko

For the record, I am a non-denominational, moderate christian. I do not believe in the creation theory as much as I like the values and morals christianity pushes (The basics, like honesty, no violence, no stealing, generousity, etc). Now before you say it, no I don't shun anyone who believes in anything else. No, I don't go on a fucking crusade to slaughter muslims by the thousands.

Anyways. I say the two can coexist NOT to compromise one another. But seeing as science can't prove where the hell the Earth came from, and how 76 billion coincidences happened all at once, you can then plug in creationism.

Example: The formation of the Earth, as well as the beginning of life cannot be completely explained through science. There is a possibility that an external force, such as a god or another race of beings, could have made the changes themselves.

They already found DNA precursors on meteorites. This does give some clue as to where life may have come from. However, DNA and RNA do not equate life. If you had a full set of human DNA lying on the ground, will it evolve? No.

So by compromise, I mean one's gaps can be filled in by the other. Where Science fails, Religion can help close the missing pieces of the puzzle until science can find a solid answer.

Well I'm saying why bother trying to fill the gap?


Science simply can't now, and perhaps will never be able to; Religion can ALWAYS say "It's a TEST FROM GAAAAAWD!!! " or that God is all-powerful so of course anything is possible. In reality, that doesn't really explain anything, because no matter WHAT the situation, 'it's a test' or 'God can do anything' can be applied as the answer. And I'm sorry, but I think God has better shit to do than to test ME specifically. I bet he's watching the European Football/soccer games like every other fucker.



Clearly we fail at filling this gap, so why bother trying? Just accept it and be a good person because it's the right thing to do, not neccesarily cause you're constantly being watched. I'm not saying I don't believe in God, but I know I may never know if there is one, so it's not really a concern of mine. And if I'm to go to hell for not being religious with the few reasons I've been given to believe, even though I feel I've been a good person, then wtf what a dick... D<

[Rutiene]

I don't even see why there's an issue between Evolution vs Creationism unless we have a class named: "Where did life come from?"

Science is science. Religion is religion. The two is based on very different thought beliefs. One is based on faith, the other shuns the very notion of it. School is there to introduce you to what's out there. If you choose to take religion, then you'll learn about creationism. If you choose to take science, you'll learn about evolution. What you believe in will be based on what you know about the two, your own experiences, and in the end, yourself.

So why make it so complicated?

[Dr. Slick]

That's the problem. In public schools, you don't have a choice. You have science. That's it.

Seperation of Church and State, Ruti.

[Rutiene]

I don't know about the US. But in Canada, we learn about evolution in Grade 11 Biology. Which is an elective. Creationism is taught in Religion. Which is an elective.

And what does separation of church and state have to do with anything? Science isn't church. The goal of it is to teach you problem solving and scientific thinking, while introducing you to the ideas that have sprung from such logical thinking.

[Dr. Slick]

Well we're talking about America here.

[Rutiene]

Then tell me, what's it like in the States? Do they force you to take Science to a point where it's never an elective? Or do they teach it to you to the point where you have garnered the fundamentals for the purpose of understanding the scientific process, which is essential in being able to survive in the academic world, no matter the field.

[Dr. Slick]

I just did. You get science. Religion isn't an elective- It isn't even offered. Science isn't an elective either.. Religion gets tied in with the Cultural aspect of World History. Which, in most States, it's a major.

Then, Science is a major as well, which teaches, in biology, about the human genes, about how we came to be. According to them.

[Rutiene]

Originally Posted by Dr. Slick

So to sum it up, here is what I propose. Don't teach either. Because no one knows for sure if either of them are right. And don't call God a god if he can't even protect his people. Because if a God is too busy to help, then that is no god. That is something else.

Evolution is fact. The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is a theory of its mechanism, which has still been accepted by the entire scientific world. Macroevolution (the idea that we all evolved from bacteria) is an extension of the two above.

Not teaching macroevolution? Maybe. But then, it is one of the most obvious extrapolations from the above two. Science has never taught to not question macroevolution. It is the basis of science to question everything. Peer reviews are the very foundation of the scientific academic world.

Originally Posted by Dr. Slick

I just did. You get science. Religion isn't an elective- It isn't even offered. Science isn't an elective either.. Religion gets tied in with the Cultural aspect of World History. Which, in most States, it's a major.

Then, Science is a major as well, which teaches, in biology, about the human genes, about how we came to be. According to them.

Really. What years are we talking about here? Last I heard, majors were only apart of University systems.

The crux of this issue is that the school curriculum is not standardized in the US. Which is why you'll have schools as the above, and schools who'll teach ID, and schools who will refuse to teach religion at all. (Although, from what I've seen, there is usually at least one school in the district that does offer it as an elective.) By the way, I completely do not believe that there's a school system out there that requires the student to take Science all the way to graduation. And the actual concept of Evolution as it has become today is advanced enough that it shouldn't be taught until at least Grade 11. And if the school fails to recognize this in their curriculum, that is a failing of the staff. Fail rates would be too high.

[Dr. Slick]

Originally Posted by Rutiene

Evolution is fact. The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is a theory of its mechanism, which has still been accepted by the entire scientific world. Macroevolution (the idea that we all evolved from bacteria) is an extension of the two above.

Not teaching macroevolution? Maybe. But then, it is one of the most obvious extrapolations from the above two. Science has never taught to not question macroevolution. It is the basis of science to question everything. Peer reviews are the very foundation of the scientific academic world.

Really? You can truly tell me it's fact? Okay. Go back about 50 million years and tell me what happens when you get back. Oh wait, you can't. No one REALLY knows what happened. NO ONE. NO ONE recorded what happened then, and even if they did, you have no way of proving if it was true or false. History is only made up of what has been recorded or found along the way of us moving up the ladder to the top of the chain, Ruti.

Fact is what you want it to be. Fact CAN be manipulated. I don't care HOW many scientist accepted it, let them try to argue that.

Originally Posted by Rutiene

Really. What years are we talking about here? Last I heard, majors were only apart of University systems.

High school. Maybe even Middle/Jr. High School. You get your regular classes. Which are majors, meaning you need them for the main credits to graduate.

Originally Posted by Rutiene

The crux of this issue is that the school curriculum is not standardized in the US. Which is why you'll have schools as the above, and schools who'll teach ID, and schools who will refuse to teach religion at all. (Although, from what I've seen, there is usually at least one school in the district that does offer it as an elective.) By the way, I completely do not believe that there's a school system out there that requires the student to take Science all the way to graduation. And the actual concept of Evolution as it has become today is advanced enough that it shouldn't be taught until at least Grade 11. And if the school fails to recognize this in their curriculum, that is a failing of the staff. Fail rates would be too high.

Wow. Are you joking? I needed Science to graduate. Everyone in my school district needs science to graduate. Don't argue with me about things I KNOW about and have BEEN through because that just makes you sound really ignorant. I've been here, and I've needed to pass at least two classes of Science to get my credits.

[Rutiene]

Originally Posted by Dr. Slick

Really? You can truly tell me it's fact? Okay. Go back about 50 million years and tell me what happens when you get back. Oh wait, you can't. No one REALLY knows what happened. NO ONE. NO ONE recorded what happened then, and even if they did, you have no way of proving if it was true or false. History is only made up of what has been recorded or found along the way of us moving up the ladder to the top of the chain, Ruti.

Fact is what you want it to be. Fact CAN be manipulated. I don't care HOW many scientist accepted it, let them try to argue that.

Evolution doesn't tell you what happened 50 million years ago. It only tells you that organisms change. That is a fact.

What you're talking about is apart of the extrapolation. Which again, as I have said, we are taught to question any such conclusion in science.

Originally Posted by Dr. Slick

High school. Maybe even Middle/Jr. High School. You get your regular classes. Which are majors, meaning you need them for the main credits to graduate.

And they teach evolution in those classes? Because from your understanding of it, I can say that they didn't really. They extend all the way to higher level grades? Cause last I heard, many of my friends in College that aren't in a science field didn't take science past Grade 10.

I don't mean to be insulting, but there are so many misconceptions about evolution and the scientific world by those who are not involved in it, that it makes these debates very frustrating.

[Dr. Slick]

Originally Posted by Rutiene

Evolution doesn't tell you what happened 50 million years ago. It only tells you that organisms change.

What you're talking about is apart of the extrapolation. Which again, as I have said, we are taught to question any such conclusions in science.

No, but according to science we've only been here a short while. I'm telling you to go back then, and tell me if we really did evolve. That's what I'm saying. You're misunderstanding everything I'm saying.

Originally Posted by Rutiene

And they teach evolution in those classes? Because from your understanding of it, I can say that they didn't really. I don't mean to be insulting, but there are so many misconceptions about evolution and the scientific world by those who are not fully involved in it, that it makes these debates very frustrating.

I haven't said anything about what they taught me on it. So you have no idea what my understanding of it is.