The European Union

Bleudrgn2010 · 03:16 PM

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Lately I've sort of been pondering about the EU. Of course we all know throughout history Europe has generally been the starter of all the big wars and conquerers (Alexander the Great's conquest, Romans, Napoleonic Wars, World War I, World War II and probably more I'm not mentioning), and throughout history many of the European countries have been global powers like the British, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Russians, Austria-Hungarians, Romans, Greeks, etc, etc (I mean not all at the moment but some time in history, and many even now are still considerable powers).

So, considering that many of the European countries are quite influential in worldly affairs, what would the impact be of a completely unified Europe, where it is 100% guaranteed none of the countries will secede from the Union, all countries under a single monetary system, and etc. Looking at the CIA factbook, the EU's economy combined is even better than that of the United States, with a better economy can create a better army and the entire European population is over twice that of the United States' population which could directly influence army size. We also know that the British air force and navy are nothing to be undermined and possibly only second to that of the United States' and could become even better with the help of the rest of Europe.

Basically what I'm getting at here, is if Europe is completely unified (under the current ideal unification the EU is going for) could it possibly mark the entry of a world superpower? And if so, how would the United States react to such a thing, or even the rest of the world? I'm just really interested in what could happen if Europe loses the desire for war against each other and starts focusing on affairs outside their own border... I wanna know what you guys think, and sorry if any of my information is wrong or seems amateur as I really haven't done much research or anything, a lot are just inferences and such, but nonetheless it interests me.

So, do you think the EU could become a super power and thus change the world quite a bit? Or what impact do you think a unified Europe could have on the rest of the world?

devlaamseleeuw · 06-05-2008, 09:44 AM

There are way too many seperate cultures to be unified. Even some countries have regions that want to seperate. And due to our rich history of world domination, it's pretty impossible to be unified.
Currently the European Union has almost 500 Milion inhabitants. 4 Members of the G7 are european countries. In a certain way the (West)European countries are already a superpower. Without the European countries the US is nothing. Due to the colonial history the European countries still have a lot of influence in the world.
Also we don't have the aggresive attitude anymore that is required to become a superpower in the world. Europe has been split up again several times to prevent one country to become too powerfull. France and Spain were once on the edge of merging into 1 coutnry, while both countries dominated like 1/3th of the know world each. After Napoleon Europe was divided in smaller countries.

Basicly Europe is too rich and stubborn to merge into 1 superpower.

Bleudrgn2010 · 11:26 AM

Yeah, I see what you mean about how it couldn't be a superpower... And I understand that it can't be unified, but I did sort of look at the goals that the EU is striving towards, and it seems that it's striving to combine the economies of Europe (which combined would be, of course, massive) and allowing Europe to "feel" unified while at the same time keeping each country's cultural diversity and all of that, to simply eliminate the desire for war among each other and create prosperity by...merging/sharing economies.

I understand Europe, at this point, probably won't want to be a military power and start on conquests again, which the EU is trying solidify I believe, but I mean will the massive economy that it has the potential of reaching thus affect the world in a considerable way?

I was reading this text book, it said something along the lines of: If the EU's goals are completely reached and their economies merge, their market would easily be able to compete with that of America and the Japanese and all the other huge markets out there, and if that were to happen, the world could separate into regional trading blocs and halt global trade.

**AidanRyuko** · 06-05-2008, 06:41 PM

Yeah, the EU's economy makes the American economy look third-world. Combined, Europe would be unstoppable, however, I think it is in their best interest to coexist peacefully instead of dominating the world.

For Europe to combine into one entity, would mean to begin a language merger, deciding on ONE language for the entire EU would be hard enough. Then not to mention management of resources, leadership, etc. I think actually most of it would stay the same, but the Language barrier would be hard to overcome.

Also, It's funny how you mentioned Europe's economy rivaling that of Japan's. I'm pretty sure that since WWII, Japan has been basically reliant on the US. The US could have been beaten in WWII by the Japanese, but through the nuclear warheads, they won. Now the US occupies their country, runs it, and oversees the economy. Shit, I know I would wanna watch someone after they just hit me in the face.

If anything happens with the EU, Americans will wake up and see how shitty their economy is compared to the EU, and possibly try to improve.

Kamui4356 · 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AidanRyuko

Yeah, the EU's economy makes the American economy look third-world. Combined, Europe would be unstoppable, however, I think it is in their best interest to coexist peacefully instead of dominating the world.

For Europe to combine into one entity, would mean to begin a language merger, deciding on ONE language for the entire EU would be hard enough. Then not to mention management of resources, leadership, etc. I think actually most of it would stay the same, but the Language barrier would be hard to overcome.

Also, It's funny how you mentioned Europe's economy rivaling that of Japan's. I'm pretty sure that since WWII, Japan has been basically reliant on the US. The US could have been beaten in WWII by the Japanese, but through the nuclear warheads, they won. Now the US occupies their country, runs it, and oversees the economy. Shit, I know I would wanna watch someone after they just hit me in the face.

If anything happens with the EU, Americans will wake up and see how shitty their economy is compared to the EU, and possibly try to improve.

What?

I'm going to have to say you haven't a clue what you're talking about. Let's take this in chronological order.

Quote:

Also, It's funny how you mentioned Europe's economy rivaling that of Japan's. I'm pretty sure that since WWII, Japan has been basically reliant on the US. The US could have been beaten in WWII by the Japanese, but through the nuclear warheads, they won. Now the US occupies their country, runs it, and oversees the economy. Shit, I know I would wanna watch someone after they just hit me in the face.

No. First of all, the Japanese never had a chance against the US, with or without nukes. Remember, by the time they were dropped, the US had already pushed Japan back to the home islands, without using more than 15% of it's total war output. Once again, 85% of the war output was going to defeat Germany, the other 15% was what was being used against Japan, and the US was still massively outproducing Japan. It was a war the Japanese couldn't win, and they knew it. They simply felt the US wouldn't be willing to do what it took to win.

The US still has troops in Japan, but they don't occupy it anymore than the US troops in Europe occupy the various countries there. The Japanese economy is still the second largest in the world, behind the US and slightly ahead of Germany and China. In no way does the US control Japan.

Quote:

Yeah, the EU's economy makes the American economy look third-world. Combined, Europe would be unstoppable, however, I think it is in their best interest to coexist peacefully instead of dominating the world.

Combined the GDP is about $17 trillion. The US GDP alone is about $14 trillion. Source

In what way does the US economy look like a third world nation in comparison? Not to mention that isn't evenly divided amoung EU nations. Germany, France, the UK, Italy, and Spain count for most of that, almost $14 trillion.

**Moshineko** · 06-06-2008, 05:19 AM

Probably the perception of the EU having a great economy comes from the massive social safety net they have. Forget that the Europeans pay half their paycheck in taxes, and have much lower purchasing power than the average American. GDP is a verrrrry loose approximation of a country's output, doesn't factor in purchasing power, taxes per capita, or anything like that.

For Example, France's tax system:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CIC

Local taxes1

Whilst income tax constitutes the primary tax burden in France, you should not forget the "Taxe d'Habitation" – Community Charge. This tax is assessed on the occupants of all types of accommodation, as of 1st January each year. The basis of the community charge is the rental value of the property, irrespective of it being owned or rented by you. The Community Charge usually amounts to less than one month’s rent. You will receive the bill in October for payment by 15th November at the latest.
The "Taxe Foncière" - Property Tax is also due by any owner of property in France before the end of each year (usually it has to be paid before 15th October). Owner-occupiers are liable for both taxes.

Property income

Property income is generally taxed in the country where the property is located. However, to avoid double taxation, when a tax treaty exists with the other country, foreign property income tax is taken into consideration in France. Investment income : French interest income: for French interest income, you may opt for a 26% (16% + 10% social contributions) with holding tax or taxation in accordance with the sliding scale (in 2003, the top rate on the sliding scale is 49.58% of taxable income and for 2004, the top rate on the sliding scale is 48.09% of taxable income). French dividends are taxed on the sliding scale basis. Foreign dividends and interest income : for dividends and interest income received from countries having concluded a tax treaty with France, the gross amount received (before the foreign withholding tax deduction) is also taxable in France. Thereafter, the application of the tax treaty avoids double taxation. Social contributions are also payable on these types of income.

https://www.cic.fr/en/bank/personal-...nce/index.html

By contrast, the income tax for Americans tops out at 35%, and property taxes at around 5% (Wikipedia), giving, at most, a 40% taxation, compared to, without property, almost 50% for residents of France. Giving, before any consideration of pay rates or any other mitigatin factors, an average of 10% more purchasing power for americans.

The E.U. is also, perhaps sharing this with the U.S., too tolerant. Yes, it sounds odd, but hear me out.

In Germany, in March of 2007, a muslim woman who filed for an expidited divorce (Germany requires a one-year seperation before divorce), was beaten by her husband, after filing.

When the case came before the judge, she used passages of the Koran to justify the husband's right to use corporal punishment on his wife. Essentially telling the German people that sharia (Islamic religious law) trumped German civil law.

Yes, I know that this isn't the rule, but it does set a precedent, a very scary one, for people to begin to undermine E.U. civil rules. It is the tolerance of the intolerant that is at issue. So far as I know, only the British have any rules against hate speech that would be sufficient to punish the intolerant. Free speech is important, but taken to an extreme, it merits punishment other than that given socially by one's peers, especially from a community leader, whether it be a Christian priest, an Islamic mullah, or a Jewish rabbi.

Setting precedents like these are more dangerous for the E.U. for one reason; they have more neighbors. The U.S. has Canada on one side, a peaceful neighbor and almost certain to remain one, and Mexico on the other, which, probably due to U.S. policy, has very little ability to take any manner of legal or military action against the U.S.

The E.U., however, is bounded by all the unfriendly neighbors of Asia, and, by admitting even in part that their laws are submissive to non-E.U. laws, they open a crack that I'm sure these unfriendly neighbors will want to exploit.

Recently, in some states of the E.U., this predeliction to a laisse-faire attitude about background and culture has led to a bit of trouble, including some very worrying facist speech in Italy by a rather highly-ranked political figure ( http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3908192.ece).

Now. I know that we'll start arguing American intolerance versus European tolerance, and all to the good. America is, ideally, less tolerant than perhaps it should be. But, America doesn't have dangerous neighbors, the E.U. does. America can afford more tolerance, Europe, sadly, cannot.

So, with a relatively weak foreign policy, and a relatively weaker economy, the E.U., as mentioned earlier, has really lost the fire necessary to become a true superpower. I think we should be looking towards China, India, and Russia to fill those spots. America is definitely on a decline but, as England showed, declines can often take decades or even centuries to bottom out.

**AidanRyuko** · 06-06-2008, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshineko

Probably the perception of the EU having a great economy comes from the massive social safety net they have. Forget that the Europeans pay half their paycheck in taxes, and have much lower purchasing power than the average American. GDP is a verrrrry loose approximation of a country's output, doesn't factor in purchasing power, taxes per capita, or anything like that.

For Example, France's tax system:

https://www.cic.fr/en/bank/personal-...nce/index.html

By contrast, the income tax for Americans tops out at 35%, and property taxes at around 5% (Wikipedia), giving, at most, a 40% taxation, compared to, without property, almost 50% for residents of France. Giving, before any consideration of pay rates or any other mitigatin factors, an average of 10% more purchasing power for americans.

The E.U. is also, perhaps sharing this with the U.S., too tolerant. Yes, it sounds odd, but hear me out.

In Germany, in March of 2007, a muslim woman who filed for an expidited divorce (Germany requires a one-year seperation before divorce), was beaten by her husband, after filing.

When the case came before the judge, she used passages of the Koran to justify the husband's right to use corporal punishment on his wife. Essentially telling the German people that sharia (Islamic religious law) trumped German civil law.

Yes, I know that this isn't the rule, but it does set a precedent, a very scary one, for people to begin to undermine E.U. civil rules. It is the tolerance of the intolerant that is at issue. So far as I know, only the British have any rules against hate speech that would be sufficient to punish the intolerant. Free speech is important, but taken to an extreme, it merits punishment other than that given socially by one's peers, especially from a community leader, whether it be a Christian priest, an Islamic mullah, or a Jewish rabbi.

Setting precedents like these are more dangerous for the E.U. for one reason; they have more neighbors. The U.S. has Canada on one side, a peaceful neighbor and almost certain to remain one, and Mexico on the other, which, probably due to U.S. policy, has very little ability to take any manner of legal or military action against the U.S.

The E.U., however, is bounded by all the unfriendly neighbors of Asia, and, by admitting even in part that their laws are submissive to non-E.U. laws, they open a crack that I'm sure these unfriendly neighbors will want to exploit.

Recently, in some states of the E.U., this predeliction to a laisse-faire attitude about background and culture has led to a bit of trouble, including some very worrying facist speech in Italy by a rather highly-ranked political figure ( http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3908192.ece).

Now. I know that we'll start arguing American intolerance versus European tolerance, and all to the good. America is, ideally, less tolerant than perhaps it should be. But, America doesn't have dangerous neighbors, the E.U. does. America can afford more tolerance, Europe, sadly, cannot.

So, with a relatively weak foreign policy, and a relatively weaker economy, the E.U., as mentioned earlier, has really lost the fire necessary to become a true superpower. I think we should be looking towards China, India, and Russia to fill those spots. America is definitely on a decline but, as England showed, declines can often take decades or even centuries to bottom out.

What do you mean bottom out? You mean get to it's worst...or?

'Cause what did it take to start the great depression? If I remember correctly, it all happened within a few months and BAM. America's entire economy was shot to hell. Today I think they have methods of ensuring that doesn't happen, but still, if things can change that quickly before, it may do it again.

**Moshineko** · 06-06-2008, 06:43 AM

Yes, bottoming out. I mean the inability to recover from such an event. The fall of the country itself, not just a blow to the economy. In decades to come, the economy will probably fail to greater and lesser extents, but, with its hold on power, America is still important enough to the world that they can't let it fail just yet.

When the new superpowers take control, and America's power wanes, it would become incresingly likely that any blow to the economy would not be recovered from.

Bleudrgn2010 · 06-06-2008, 12:42 PM

Yes, I can understand why it can't become a superpower as far as military and such like that...but what about the effect it can have economically? A lot of global trade comes from Europe, and there're still many nations to be inducted into the EU. 500 million inhabitants of Europe are currently in the EU...there are still ~200 million left outside of the EU, which is quite a bit, even though most of the big countries of Europe have joined the EU, the fact is there is still room for more.

And yeah, as you guys have shown, already the EU's economy is ahead of the US in GDP (for whatever that counts for). In the future, how can this massive economy affect the rest of the world?

Though if one thing could be cleared up to me at the moment...why, in lists, does it not show the EU in rank? I know it's not a nation but nonetheless it is a combined economy of nations, right? So the EU's economy acts as one nations would, but they are not truly a nation under other definitions, so why wouldn't they be ranked? Unless they truly aren't economically unified yet and that's just an esitmate if they were?

sirloin600 · 06-06-2008, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AidanRyuko

What do you mean bottom out? You mean get to it's worst...or?

'Cause what did it take to start the great depression? If I remember correctly, it all happened within a few months and BAM. America's entire economy was shot to hell. Today I think they have methods of ensuring that doesn't happen, but still, if things can change that quickly before, it may do it again.

May I remind you that the great depression was WAY worse in Europe then in America.

devlaamseleeuw · 06-06-2008, 02:37 PM

Europe is the source, the present and the future of the world economy. It might not be as obvious as what the US does, but i believe that Europe is pulling the strings behind the scenes. Europe has dominated whole the world in the past, and a lot of companies/countries are still very active in the old colonies. It's probably a lot more complicated then what i say. But several European countries have been able to compete with the US and Japan on economical base on their own.

woxxy · 03:09 PM

I always made myself the same question and I wondered if it could ever happen.

First of all, it's already happening, and no, it won't be ever like USA. And that's just good.

Second, USA aren't a superpower. Less than 300 million people. That's just 3-4 European states allied. That doesn't make it a superpower. Those 3-4 states can easily overwhelm USA's military, population. Probably not the economy. Yeah, the petrol thing and such. And still, those states aren't all that divided on culture.
This was the whole text in few words...

It's not even cohalized as culture as I see it, not more than europeans. I'm quite a traveller and mix myself with other cultures, beside being a guy born off two different states. I never seen such a culture difference to make a union hard, rather, there's a very unified culture in Europe. It's not historic culture, nor art culture. It's lifestyle. The only really counting culture. And we all got the same lifestyle after all. I keep reading on this same forum about hard differences between states. Don't forget the USA culture isn't as condivided as Europe's. I think that European's feeling can be more nationalistic than american's.
You can hear a lot of times that people living in europe are getting nationalistic (continentalistic?) as we're getting more pride over this great agglomerate, and losing the feeling of our own small nation.

Our military is better to stay separated. The power of it would be just enough to conquer the world. As it must happen, in case of attack the european states are allies. So there comes the NECESSARY conjunction of forces.
Building an european army would be like a run for 'weapons'. We aren't in need to attack anyone, and we're still able to front any country of the world by NATO alliance and company. Just to say, Germany, Italy, France and England altogether should be enough to overwhelm the american army. Add to that Spain. I hope we won't ever need to see that.

Technologically, we'd never beat amer... INDIA. I'm sorry for USA, but their silicon valley is getting less and less epic. With this tendence, we'll see asian countries to be the most technologically expanded.
By now, Europe doesn't show off its technologies. But we got the hell of places like CERN. The space program is not even used as advertising to say HEY OUR NATION IS THE BEST. But yet, look who's is most of the orbital space station. We got a way higher quantity of brains here. Underpayed. Too bad they don't go in USA like in last decade. They go in Asia now. They pay way more.
We're not riding the wave as USA. But that wave is getting to the beach now.

Economics in Europe are ruled by USA for a fair part. We didn't get out of this yet, and first thing to GTFO is the usage of petrol. But I guess USA itself pushes for this to not to happen, as well as car sellers.
But we'd also have to embed the stocks from their wall street.
Right tho... look at the fluctuations of the €/$. We're gaining a freaking lot as importers off that. Tho, Europe is a massive exporter to USA. And there comes the rub..

Europe won't become a state like USA. But we'll with time have unified laws (we already have a constitution). The economy is already untaxed between states. The language problem 'for the people who counts' is not existing. Workers change state here pretty easily, even if it's not as needed, since we have only like 20 bigger states to wander in.
Our politics won't ever merge. We will never have that ruler that the american president is. We'll have this parliament as we already have, but with POWERS, not as the tea party that now it is.

Bleudrgn2010 · 06-06-2008, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woxxy

I always made myself the same question and I wondered if it could ever happen.

First of all, it's already happening, and no, it won't be ever like USA. And that's just good.

I agree, very good. I was looking at the EU's website and it said how it's creating a unification like the world has never seen before, and it's a very interesting one and one I think could work. =o The only problem I see is that the countries in the Union could secede at any time...there should be a substantial force holding them together, like the US has. No state in the USA can secede and stand on its own, however that can't be said about the EU's countries, not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

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