[hazelmurphy]

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Originally Posted by Longknife

Anyways, on a more serious note, if McCain wins then....holy fuck. I may SERIOUSLY burn my US passport. I mean, Obama may turn out to be a dud, just like any other candidate, but McCain is like...he ALREADY fails. D8 I mean wtf at least TRY to lie to us and look good...

Substitue passport for citizenship and I said the same thing about Gore in '00 and Kerry in '04.

Seriosuly, we're screwed no matter who wins. If I gotta be screwed by a guy, I'd rather it be buy a guy with tons of experience than by a guy with no experience who clearly is confused as to what he is intended to do.

[Moshineko]

Originally Posted by Longknife

Hey hey now, let's not diss on the womanizers. Oddly enough some of our favorite people in American politics have been womanizers. JFK was obviously loved, I thought Bill was pretty cool, and let's not forget this guy:




That fucker LOVED booty...


Anyways, on a more serious note, if McCain wins then....holy fuck. I may SERIOUSLY burn my US passport. I mean, Obama may turn out to be a dud, just like any other candidate, but McCain is like...he ALREADY fails. D8 I mean wtf at least TRY to lie to us and look good...

Hell, who's dissing? Clinton helped to get rid of the defecit in our budget for the first time in, well, practically forever.

And do remember, that as bad as McCain is, it's your Congress that's fucking you over. Everything the President does, he needs that backup.

[thomas1993]

i'd vote for mccain, he looks sympathetic

[Longknife]

Originally Posted by thomas1993

i'd vote for mccain, he looks sympathetic

....He does?



I don't think a politician has EVER looked sympathetic.

[Longknife]

Originally Posted by hazelmurphy

Substitue passport for citizenship and I said the same thing about Gore in '00 and Kerry in '04.

Seriosuly, we're screwed no matter who wins. If I gotta be screwed by a guy, I'd rather it be buy a guy with tons of experience than by a guy with no experience who clearly is confused as to what he is intended to do.

Dubble postin again cuz I a rebel.



Well, a few of my interests are:

-Universal healthcare
-Universal healthcare again. Seriously, I can't even come back til they get that.
-New forms of energy
-Foreign relations
-Education costs
-I'm not exactly into any anti-abortion or Anti-Gay marriage/Civil union ideas


Obama is on the Foreign Relations comittee, so that's definitely a good sign for his experience with foreign relations. McCain was...a prisoner of war, and I'm sorry, but I doubt being imprisoned and treated poorly would make him so friendly with other countries.
Universal healthcare is just...I really doubt he'll do it; Hillary and Bill sure failed, as have others. However, I gotta keep pushing for that chance instead of someone who just says no.
Obama's already stated he wants to look into new forms of energy.
Gay marriage and abortion are pretty obvious.

So yeah, Barack has a fair amount of things I want. I'll admit he's a gamble since he's somewhat new to the game, but honestly, with both Bush and the Senate bein' bishes, a gamble doesn't seem that bad.

I'm also really not fond of McCain's inability to give a speech without looking awkward or like Bush. I know that's not a political issue, but it IS a foreign relations issue in a sense. What the hell are other countries gonna think if we vote in ANOTHER guy who can't speak worth shit?
More importantly, I don't like McCain's ACTUAL foreign relations. Have you all heard his speech about Russia, and about looking into Putin's eyes and seeing "KGB?" Look man, even if you think it, you don't prance around saying it like a freaking dipshit! D8 If FW were a playground and Moshi pranced around saying that when he looked in my eyes he saw "N.a.z.i.," do you think that'd help keep the peace? Either I'll get outraged and slug him, someone else will get outraged and slug him, or everyone will listen and jump me. There's also the possibility that Moshi may just slug me himself later. Hell, Russia's already not fond of his ass, and he's not even in office:

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/con...8/s2157829.htm

Point is, anytime I hear him talk about foreign relations, he sounds like he's talking about a freaking strategy game, and not a world filled with people; rational people capable of sensitivity and logic.

He doesn't meet any needs I have, and the icing on the cake is, holy crap, he really DOES sound as shitty as Bush when he's giving a speech. Not exactly the same, mind you: He doesn't sound stupid, but he does always sound incredibly awkward and sometimes a bit clueless. Only time I hear well-spoken speeches from him is when they're in regards to war or foreign relations (which he seems to treat the same).







Even if Obama were a bad candidate, I see no reason to choose McCain over him. Really hazel, I'd like to hear some points other than "more experienced." I wanna hear actual points, cause I've actually yet to hear any...

[Moshineko]

Jesus, why me? FUCKING NAZI!



Yesh, there is something to be said for not saying what you feel, even if people agree with you. Obama needs to learn that as well, though. It's well and good for politicians to change their opinion based on new evidence, but they do have to remember that, to the public, it makes them look, to overuse the term, as though they're flip-flopping.

[hazelmurphy]

Well Number A.) I personally do not want the government providing universal healthcare. I've said it before and I will say it again. The government providing healthcare to those who can not afford it = good. The government choosing the healthcare program for all of its citizens = bad.

Number B.) Everyone 'talks' about new forms of energy. Obama's brilliant plan at this point? Release some oil from the national strategic reserves. Clinton did that once. It didn't work then, it won't work now. Barrack shows any sign that he is willing to work with the ideas of increased drilling in the United States, then I will concede that he isn't a total loss when it comes to dealing with the energy crisis.

Letter 3.) You don't think McCain would be good at foreign relations because he doesn't trust Putin? No one in their right mind should trust Putin. Just look at what he did in the last 'election' to make sure he stays in control of Russia. There is nothing any US president could say at this moment that would placate the Russian government. Why? Because we actually came out on top in the Cold War, or at least that is the common perception.

Point is, anytime I hear him talk about foreign relations, he sounds like he's talking about a freaking strategy game, and not a world filled with people; rational people capable of sensitivity and logic.

Sorry boss. But foreign relations IS a strategy game. You don't deal with individuals in FR, you deal with systems of government.

Alpha Squadron 4.)

with both Bush and the Senate bein' bishes

Last I checked, Barrack was in the Senate.

MegaMan 5.) I've always been crazy enough to listen to the content of a speech -not how it is delivered. We elected a president once before in my lifetime based entirely on the fact that he was a smooth speaker, and it got us 8 years of garbage under Slick Willie.

Final Fantasy 6.) You want facts about McCain, you are certainly smart enough to find them on your own. My question is, why are you arguing in defense of Obama, yet not listing any facts on his behalf other than the fact the he is on the Senate FR committe?
The main reason you haven't heard me listing facts to defend McCain is because I am not trying to defend McCain. I don't think he would make a good president, and I disagree with him on many many issues. I do, however, feel that Barrack would be much much worse.

Well I'm at work and I have to ride my motorcycle home through a thunderstorm, so I'm gonna get started doing that awhile. If You don't hear from me in 3 days, send flowers to my parents.

[Longknife]

Originally Posted by Moshineko

Jesus, why me? FUCKING NAZI!



Yesh, there is something to be said for not saying what you feel, even if people agree with you. Obama needs to learn that as well, though. It's well and good for politicians to change their opinion based on new evidence, but they do have to remember that, to the public, it makes them look, to overuse the term, as though they're flip-flopping.

Would you mind naming some points where he's flip-flopped? Cause I've actually searched for Obama flip-flopping three times now, and I've never found shit. It's always a bunch of Fox news (which really is starting to piss me off, cause it's such a waste of time) or it's someone taking something like the DC gun law, and expecting a black or white answer, and getting annoyed cause his answer is grey. (they want a "No, 2nd amendment" or "Yes it's ok," and he gives a "I believe there are some ways to crack down on gun control with felons and still respect the 2nd amendment")

So, so far, I can't help but think that the flip-flop arguement is nothing but a recycled arguement from the '04 election with Kerry.

[hazelmurphy]

The flip-flop argument has been used as long as I can remember by both parties. It was one of Clinton's main running points in 1990.

As for a specific incident - Tapping into the strategic oil reserves. He started off running saying it was a bad idea - and just the other day proposed that it was the best course of action.

[Longknife]

Originally Posted by hazelmurphy

Well Number A.) I personally do not want the government providing universal healthcare. I've said it before and I will say it again. The government providing healthcare to those who can not afford it = good. The government choosing the healthcare program for all of its citizens = bad.

Number B.) Everyone 'talks' about new forms of energy. Obama's brilliant plan at this point? Release some oil from the national strategic reserves. Clinton did that once. It didn't work then, it won't work now. Barrack shows any sign that he is willing to work with the ideas of increased drilling in the United States, then I will concede that he isn't a total loss when it comes to dealing with the energy crisis.

Letter 3.) You don't think McCain would be good at foreign relations because he doesn't trust Putin? No one in their right mind should trust Putin. Just look at what he did in the last 'election' to make sure he stays in control of Russia. There is nothing any US president could say at this moment that would placate the Russian government. Why? Because we actually came out on top in the Cold War, or at least that is the common perception.

Sorry boss. But foreign relations IS a strategy game. You don't deal with individuals in FR, you deal with systems of government.

Alpha Squadron 4.) Last I checked, Barrack was in the Senate.

MegaMan 5.) I've always been crazy enough to listen to the content of a speech -not how it is delivered. We elected a president once before in my lifetime based entirely on the fact that he was a smooth speaker, and it got us 8 years of garbage under Slick Willie.

Final Fantasy 6.) You want facts about McCain, you are certainly smart enough to find them on your own. My question is, why are you arguing in defense of Obama, yet not listing any facts on his behalf other than the fact the he is on the Senate FR committe?
The main reason you haven't heard me listing facts to defend McCain is because I am not trying to defend McCain. I don't think he would make a good president, and I disagree with him on many many issues. I do, however, feel that Barrack would be much much worse.

Well I'm at work and I have to ride my motorcycle home through a thunderstorm, so I'm gonna get started doing that awhile. If You don't hear from me in 3 days, send flowers to my parents.

Well for A), why is that so bad, and what do you suggest instead? I can tell you from personal experience, that the system does NOT work right now, and it doesn't give shit to those who can't afford it. We fought for three years to get the government to admit I was disabled, and yknow what? They changed their minds about 2 months ago; they believed I was disabled for a year, then decided my leg had grown back again. If I hadn't come to Germany, I'd be in deep shit right now.


For B) I just simply disagree with you, so I won't bother arguing that since I'm sure neither of us would back off. Only point I'll make is that we can't rely on oil forever.


For 3) I already answered. Even if you don't trust him, you don't run around announcing it, spewing rumors about the guy. That'll get you freaking punched in the face!

And why the hell is it a strategy game? Why on earth do we have to continue to view the world as if there's some opposing force that needs dealt with? If you ask me, that attitude is half of the reason we HAVE wars in the first place. Yes there are cases like Osama, but Russia and China are NOTHING like Osama.


4), who wasn't in the senate? xP Nothing we can do about that, since both candidates were there. You can check a place like govtrack.us to see if McCain or Obama was involved in most of the crap you don't like.

5) Again, I simply disagree. Overall, I liked Bill, and I'm pretty sure a fair amount of people supported Hillary just for him.

And for 6), I'm not asking for facts, I'm asking for reasons why anyone would freaking vote for him. I'm saying I've checked the facts and I don't see SHIT I like about the guy, so I can't believe that he's actually competing with Obama decently. As it is now, having asked this question to several people now and having yet heard someone give a reason why they're voting for him, I'm left to guess that half of his support is from people who just don't like Barack's stances, and the other half are racists who have surfaced to strike down a black candidate (and no I don't think you're a racist. xP). I don't WANT to believe that's where some of McCain's support is coming from, but I've yet to hear a person name a reason to vote for him, so it really does leave me thinking "W.T.F...."

[guorbatschow]

i thought bill's government was pretty solid. didnt he manage to get a positive balance somewhere end 90s?

[Longknife]

Originally Posted by guorbatschow

i thought bill's government was pretty solid. didnt he manage to get a positive balance somewhere end 90s?

Honestly man, I think he left the White House with 60-something% approval rating. Only real diss to him was, holy fuck~, he got a blowjob. God help us...

[hazelmurphy]

Originally Posted by Longknife

I don't WANT to believe that's where some of McCain's support is coming from, but I've yet to hear a person name a reason to vote for him, so it really does leave me thinking "W.T.F...."

I'm too streessed after that ride to go into it too much on the other topics, But I will address this one.

I'll give you my personal reason for (most likely) voting for McCain. As far as my political views go, he is closer to them than Barrack is. Barrack is a very very liberal person. McCain is a moderately liberal person. I am a very conservative person. With the exception of certain social issues, I'm about as conservative as they come these days.

Universally, I believe raising taxes is bad. I believe big government is bad. May heaven strike me down, yes - I believe abortion is wrong. Not neccesarily illegal - but almost always wrong. Gay marriage is one I am not conservative about - I have no problem with it at all. Am I worried about the national debt? Not really. The vast bulk of the national debt is made up of money the government owes us, the citizens. Your grandparents ever buy you a savings bond for christmas? Ohh - they just contributed to the national debt. Hell, I have nearly $10,000 of the national debt locked in a safety deposit box. For many years, everytime I would cash a paycheck I would buy a bond and add to the debt. Is the foreign debt an issue? Absolutely. But the two issues are not exactly the same. Certainly the foreign end of our debt is growing quickly these days and that is an issue that needs addressing. Is the right way to pay off the debt to raise taxes like Willie did? No. The answer is to find methods of becoming less dependant on other nations. Do I believe our reliance on foreign oil is bad? Of course. Do I believe the long term solution is finding new sources of energy? Of course. Do I think we should just continue on our reliance on foreign oil until we find those new solutions? Of course not. There is oil in America, and as long as they can make the drilling as ecologically friendly as possible, then yes I think we should drill for as much of it as possible. Do I think God is really just a good NY style pepperoni pizza? Sometimes I do Oh - and yes, I do believe in trickle-down economics.

Anyway - the moral of the story is that a liberal along the lines of Barrack is just too liberal for me. Not that McCain is much better.

Personally, I think both the choices are worse than usual, but instead of flat out wasting a vote on a write in, I'll most likely vote for McCain simply becaue I see him as the lesser of two evils.

Originally Posted by Longknife

Honestly man, I think he left the White House with 60-something% approval rating. Only real diss to him was, holy fuck~, he got a blowjob. God help us...

I can think of a couple of other 'disses' (seriously I thought that word had died years ago)
-He raised taxes to an ungodly level
-He didn't even make an attempt to follow through on the bulk of his campaign promises.
-He put into action plans to cut back on border patrol, INS, CIA, FBI, and the national park ranger service as a method of cutting back on the number of government employees all while allowing the number of people employeed by the executive branch to sky rocket. . . not that he's the only one to ever do that.
-People talk about his economic success, yet he inherited and economic boom, and left office in a recession. Admittedly, any president's effect on the economy is minor at best.
-He blatantly sold presidental pardons as he was leaving office.

Anyway - I don't want to sit here all night bitchiing about Clinton, and I am getting dangerously close to wall of texting anyway. Plus I only have 5 hours left on my Azria ticket before I abandon my BP and go to my ele as my perm.

[Moshineko]

Originally Posted by Longknife

Would you mind naming some points where he's flip-flopped? Cause I've actually searched for Obama flip-flopping three times now, and I've never found shit. It's always a bunch of Fox news (which really is starting to piss me off, cause it's such a waste of time) or it's someone taking something like the DC gun law, and expecting a black or white answer, and getting annoyed cause his answer is grey. (they want a "No, 2nd amendment" or "Yes it's ok," and he gives a "I believe there are some ways to crack down on gun control with felons and still respect the 2nd amendment")

So, so far, I can't help but think that the flip-flop arguement is nothing but a recycled arguement from the '04 election with Kerry.

Well, the 2nd amendment thing was more mixed black and white than gray. He stated that he supported the 2nd amendment, while also supporting the handgun ban in D.C. Now, unless he wanted everyone in D.C. to start carrying rifles...

He's changed his position on NAFTA, he's got conflicting feelings about our current military obligations (stating that the "Surge" didn't work, then declaring that we need to send more troops to Afghanistan), and on this latest bit, he's changed, in a month, from telling us that we need to keep the Strategic Oil Reserve intact for a real emergency, to proposing that we stop making deposits to it. He's also catching a lot of flack for changing his support for continuing the off-shore oil-drilling ban, saying that it would be acceptable as part of a larger plan. He's changed his "pay or play" health care plan to an admittedly Clinton-esque plan that would give tax cuts to businesses that make a "meaningful contribution" to an employee health-care plan. He's also famously backing further and further away from the 16-month timeline for pulling everyone out of Iraq.

Of course when you look for "Obama flip-flopping", you're going to get insane Fox News garbage. Look for his policies, look at NPR and BBC, just about the only news agencies that haven't jumped on one side or the other of the hate train.

Now, again, let me state that I could give a crap less if he gets into office and finds out that the crazy, pie-in-the-sky world that he's promising us can't be made. He just needs to be a bit more careful with promising things and slowly backing away. Especially in foreign policy, that's a bad way to do business. Give most people an inch, and they'll move into your house and steal your girlfriend.

[Linkie]

Originally Posted by guorbatschow

4. obama rules.